Club Homepage Forums Classified Ads Buy & Sell - Everything But Airplanes Is this one worth $25K ?

Just an off-topic comment on 150/150 insurance. The insurance companies do not recognize the added value of the 150 (or 160 or 180) hp conversion. It is not necessarily that they are low on their value, it is just that they are not willing to insure upgrades to little airplanes that add 30-50% to the base value of the plane.

I explored this extensively with my 150/150 and that was the answer I got back. As it was, I managed to insure for about $29K after a huge amount of justification including the LR tanks and stol kit, but was still way below value.

I agree with Mike!

Owning is simply not for everyone. When you own a plane, you must pay whether you fly or not! Owning a plane is wonderful, but do not buy one because you think it is cheaper than renting. For the overwhelming majority of us, it's not! Especially for the first year or two!

Jeff,
I wouldn't be so judgemental on someones asking price, granted there are a few exceptions out there. You failed to mention you now have over 60k in your 19k airplane and it's not all been for equipment upgrades. You have had several very expensive maintenance issues, including one more big one on the horizon...

One, generally, gets what they pay for.

While my aircraft has had some problems (most of the maintenance costs were completely elective, such as squaring the landing gear, having the legs worked, flap tracks replaced, etc) the majority of the aircraft priced less than $20,000 are good, solid aircraft. If you can find one with a good engine for, say, $17,000... why in the world would you pay $25,000 for a comparable aircraft? Just because you want to throw money away?

The BIG issue is to N O T get attached to an airplane, like I did! Just because it looks pretty and has a new paint job does NOT mean the airplane will be a good one, nor does spending an excessive amount of money. Some people get burned for buying cheap. I did, somewhat. Most don't. Then you can also get burned for paying too much for an airplane!

Just because a guy wants to recoup his spending money on a new paint job DOES NOT mean the airplane is in excellent shape.

So if I paid $25,000 for my plane, that would have made its impending mechanical issues disappear?

To accent what Carl said, you pay for a plane you won whether you fly it or not. Certain costs are fixed. Such as the hanger, insurance, and some fees, like your annual. Other costs will vary with use, fuel, oil, etc.

You should ask yourself some questions. How often to you intend to fly? What type of flying will you do? Do you fly alone, or with other people? What plane fits that mission?

If you intend to fly alone, or with one other person; then two seats may be enough. If you spend most of your flights within X-nms from the airport, then speed may not be an issue. You get the drift on the questions.

For instance, my mission has shifted slightly. I want a plane with a few more capabilities in IFR. So I have to consider whether I need to modify my 150 or look for another plane. Upgrade costs can be estimated, but are they worth it?

I hope this helps.

Here are my numbers justifying buying 150

I need to finish my private license and then build few hours so I can even be considered for some interesting partnerships - 75-100 hours.

My wife wants to get her private license - 75 hours.

So we are talking about at least 150 hours in the next 12 months, which is about 15K on rentals.

Owning:
Annual + minor repairs + tie down + taxes = $3K
Gas for 150 hours = $3K
Engine depreciation for 150 hours = $1K
Total owning for 1 year and 150 hours: 3 + 3 + 1 = 7

Summary: $15K for rentals and about $7K for owning in the next year. $8K benefit of getting my own. Does that make sense?

Quite a bit of sense, actually. The 150 would be well suited for that.

You are right to look at the costs.

I believe your fuel will be about 15-20% more (on cross countries, you may not be able to control the price of fuel).

You need to add insurance. For two students/low time, will be in the area of $1,000/year.

You are banking on the engine going to TBO, and just building a reserve. The biggest myth in piston aircraft is "time to TBO". Some others on the Forum can speak to that. Gee, I bought a plane (two months after an Annual with 570 on the engine and comp's in the 70's) that lasted all of two hours before having to spend $14,000 to have it topped. Don't buy if you can't afford to rebuild the engine from day one.

I believe you may be low on "minor repairs". Owners know that anything that breaks is $500 or more, and with labor, it will come to the "aviation standard" $1,000.

Lastly, don't think someone will pay you what you paid for the plane if you sell it 1 to 2 years later. Your use will depreciate the plane more than the $1,000 you set aside for engine depreciation.

I own two planes, fly a lot, and know that beyond a doubt I could save money by renting. I make good money, and am willing to spend over $20,000/year just to have my own. You and your wife will have your hands full learning to fly. Adding the purchase, maintenance, and hassles of ownership may not be the best for you at this time.

Best of luck in whatever you decide. Mike.

I know that I am certainly glad I waited until after the biggest initial part of the learning curve was over (PPL in hand). I purchased the plane when I was far along enough in my training that I knew this would be something I would be doing as long as I could afford to, but didn't actually start flying it until I finished the checkride. From then on out, it was all about learning my own plane and learning how it behaved, which oddly enough seemed to feel a bit different than the 152 trainers I had used.

I was well-enough informed to be sure the plane I bought had complete logs back to day 1, even though I did not fully realize the implications of this until my first annual. I have since spent many hours sifting through the logs, compiling difinitive lists of all ADs, and major service work that will be affecting me in the future. But to me, it's all been worth it and very rewarding, learning and working on my own plane. I also plane to use this for at least a couple more certificates, so I'm hoping that will be the ultimate justification.

It really has to be a careful consideration for anyone who is thinking about it. Fortunately, these birds are keeping their value better than anything else I own, so as long as you don't overpay for the wrong reasons, you should be able to get out at any time with minimal losses.

Advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise (with a tip of the hat to J.R.R. Tolkien).

Purchasing an airplane may work out just as you have calculated ... and it may not. As a first time airplane buyer, you don't know going in. I have owned Juliet for two years now, and she is my first airplane. I got very lucky and she has been very trouble free, but, still, I have learned a great deal.

When my wife asks what a repair is going to cost, I usually respond, "Oh, it will be a few bucks". What I don't say (though I figure she has figured it out) is that I am referring to "airplane bucks". An airplane buck is about $1,000.

It would not take too many mechanical problems to render your financial justification for buying an airplane moot. Of course, there are other reasons for buying an airplane besides financial...

You don't mention your lifestyle. As you are probably figuring out, flight training is a lot of work. So is owning an airplane. You need to spend some time taking care of it. An airplane is more like a boat than a car. There are always little niggles that need to be addressed. That attention will draw time and attention away from your training. However, If you are retired that kind of thing may just add to the fun.

I rented airplanes during my flight training. But I was running a business at the time (I still am, for all of that) and being able to drive out to the airport and jump in the airplane when I had time to fly worked well. Sombody else got to worry about the oil changes, low tires, fixing the "squawks", and making sure things were all secure when the weather turned ugly.

When I came close to being ready for the checkride, and I knew that I had the fire in the belly to fly, and I also knew I would be basing myself at an airport where there were no rentals available, I made the leap into airplane ownership.

If you rent, you know what your costs are going to be, and somebody else gets to hassle with keeping up the airplane. If you live close to an FBO with rentals available, I think I would stay with that.

On the other hand, if you are just DYING to own an airplane, and you can afford it, what the heck! A 150 couldn't be a better choice. But I wouldn't expect the finances to work out quite as you have outlined. In fact, I wouldn't use finances to justify the purchase of airplane under any circumstances.


Reg