| | Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 8,433 Likes: 3 Member/7500+posts | | Member/7500+posts Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 8,433 Likes: 3 | I kept up with this discussion thru page one, and then quit following it. This evening I decided to jump to the end of it and see what was going on. I ended up re reading the entire thread from start to finish to figure out what went wrong here. Best I can tell, Mr. Ellsworth wanted advice on the value of a certain 150TD he has for sale.
The value of a highly modified aircraft, especially something on the bottom of the food chain like a 150 is best defined the same way the State of Georgia defines and teaches us what the value of a piece of real property is... "The Fair Market Value of a piece of real property is what a willing seller.... and a knowlegable buyer, would agree to, at a bonafied, armslength transaction"
As expected, the discussion wound around to anything tailwheel and while Jared thinks we have deviated from the original post, it does help justify the purchasing and owning of a taildragger to understand tailwheel flying in general and in particular the problems with obtaining quality instruction, securing insurance, etc.
Where things went astray is apparently a misunderstanding on Mr. Ellsworth's part about the statement George Abbot made about a previously Canadian registered 150TD he had considered pruchasing. Unless there is something here we are not privvy to, I did not read anything George wrote that said he looked at Mr. Ellsworth's 150..... just that he had at one time in the past looked at a 150TD and didnt't like the records.
At this point things went from educated discussion to anarchy.
In defense of George's discussion about Canadian aircraft (or aircraft from virtually anywhere outside the US), there are huge gaps in the maintenance records for virtually every aircraft from abroad and lots of time is consumed by maintenance personnel combing thru all the records trying to reconstruct what was done, when, and how, and we are used to Form 337's and expect to find them for major alterations and repairs and this also slows down the process as each STC has to be considered and whether the proper REQUIRED documentation relating to the conversion (such as blueprints) is present and accounted for. Indeed, a US airplane can be as much of a problem. but you at least have the FAA records to fall back on.
I've been somewhat involved in importation of several different aircraft, to one degree or another, a 310 from Germany years ago, a Grumman Cougar from England, a P-51 from Canada, and all had their problems. What I have learned from all of them is that the countries from which they hail are all proud of paperwork, the German airplane had boxes of records to back up its history, but turned out to be useless dirvel, with whole pages devoted to mundane items such as packing wheel bearings and cleaning and gapping plugs, items covered by a 100 hr or annual checklist that deserved no further documentation, and that the horrendus corrosion in the wing was apparently not of concern to the German mechanics.
What I have found (in my small limited sample), is that for all the bad handwriting that US mechanics have (and bad spelling and grammer too) US aircraft records are more likely to be complete and cover all the major repairs and alterations, replacement of important parts and such than any other countries aircraft. Foreign aircraft records tend to focus on the "I removed this screw, I installed this screw" type documentation, while ignoring the big meaty things, either thru omission or because the work was not done. This makes US buyers shy away from foreign aircraft.
Charles | | | | | Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 53 Member | | Member Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 53 | Chuck H..
You are correct about paper work varying from country to country.
We do restoration on collectors airplanes all over the world and the bureaucratic minefield is mindboggling in all countries.
What we do to determine the value of any given airplane is compare the records..or lack thereof to the actual airframe and components on the airplane being examined, seldom do we find the paper work to truly reflect the airplane for the simple reason that paper work is a bureaucrat thing and as long as the papre work is acceptable to a bureaucrat the airplane is airworthy..even if it is sitting outside on fire.
We have a super Cat in the USA at the moment that we are struggling to get flyable...that was sold as airworthy, we were brought in to get it flyable ant it has taken us six weeks of work seven days a week,it is still not ready to ferry and we will be going back in Sept. to finish it.
So it is buyer beware, anyone who takes paper work as the benchmark for the true condition of an airplane just may have a very expensive problem on their hands.
And yeh, I missunderstood who's airplane George was describing, sorry about that George, the typed word is sometimes easily missread.
As to my comments regarding aviation being " dummed down " it is not an American thing, you will find the same problem all over the world, and the problem is training airplanes have been designed to be a simple and safe as possible and that you can blame on lawyers. Now we are stuck with a training industry that thinks a tail wheel Cessna is some exotic machine that only superman can fly.
Anyhow, for sure this whole thread has gotten way off subject and through missunderstanding rather unfriendly, at times...I guess I am mostly to blame for the way it went, but do not appreciate being referred to as an arrogant prick because of some missunderstanding. Of course I could just not talk about the area of aviation that we work in but I am sure some here are interested...
Chuck E. | | | | | Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 8,433 Likes: 3 Member/7500+posts | | Member/7500+posts Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 8,433 Likes: 3 | As to my comments regarding aviation being " dummed down " it is not an American thing, you will find the same problem all over the world, and the problem is training airplanes have been designed to be a simple and safe as possible and that you can blame on lawyers. Now we are stuck with a training industry that thinks a tail wheel Cessna is some exotic machine that only superman can fly. In large part, its economics. There is no argument, a tailwheel aircraft requires more concentration, more attention, more effort, more work, than a nosewheel aircraft. Fred Weick realized this when he designed the 'Coupe and that is why it has a nosewheel. In order to attract more customers, the aviation industry saw that they needed to cater to a broader range of potential customers. Make something too difficult, and people will shy away. Climbing Mt. Everest is an example. Improvements in equipment and techniques have made a trip up Everest a possibility for a whole host of people who in the past would never even consider such a feat. Aviation is the same way, advances in the airplane, the equipment and design all have contributed to making it easier, less accident prone, should I say "more attractive" to the potential student pilot. Wanna sell more airplanes? make it easy for more people to learn to fly, and in shorter time. Fact is, taking off and landing, while important, is only a few brief moments in the flight, while everything else is the same, taildragger or tri-gear, so why make something that is only a small portion of flying so difficult when it can be made easy(ier)? Charles | | | | | Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,820 Likes: 131 Member/7500+posts | | Member/7500+posts Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,820 Likes: 131 | At least you post cool pictures, Chuck.
Gary Shreve When writing the story of your life, never, ever let someone else hold the pen. [ Linked Image] | | | | | Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,820 Likes: 131 Member/7500+posts | | Member/7500+posts Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,820 Likes: 131 | The second picture looks like you are taxiing down the street in Houston after the last flood.
Again, cool pictures.
Gary Shreve When writing the story of your life, never, ever let someone else hold the pen. [ Linked Image] | | | | | Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 572 Member/500+posts | | Member/500+posts Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 572 | Very cool planes! I would just like to say; "Glad to have you back Chuck E." I know we will all benefit from your vast knowledge. There are always fieworks when two type "A" personalties collide!:-)
"I want to fly like an eagle in the sky!"
| | | | | Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 53 Member | | Member Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 53 | No problem Harry, I'm a thick skinned old bastard who has been around so long nothing really bothers me for long...
..and if nothing else I am a suvivor who has nine lives.
I am concerned about this thing in Lebanon, it has the potential to really affect everyone on earth, having lived in those cultures I am truly concerned.
C.E. | | |
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