I started learning to fly 15 years ago & got within a few hours of getting my PPL - was in college, ran out of money, and finally quit. I'm interested in picking it back up again and I'm kicking around my options re buying, building and renting.

I'm certain an RV is in my future, but in the meantime I'd like to finish my PPL, instrument rating and commercial.

The cheapest rentals at my airport are Warriors @ $110/hr. If a good used 150/152 can work out to better than that over the course of, say, 300 hours - then I want one.

I found a plane that looks interesting. It belongs to an airline pilot friend of my uncle. Specs are:

1972 150L
O-200
4810 TTAF
700 SMOH
490 STOH (*will explain this below)
Annual on 11/05

Work done (@time)

Flap roller kit 4350
New spin-on oil filter 4350
New spark plugs
M20 Air/Oil Separator 4409
New Door Windows 4427
Topped Cylinders 4427
Cowl Fastener Kit 4575
New Starter 4638
New Alternator 4682
New Battery 4694
New Voltage Regulator 4733
New Vacuum Pump 4805
New Carpet and interior Plastics 07-2000
New Leather Yoke Cover w/PTT 01-2003
New Garmin GTX-327 Xpdr 09-2004
IFR Static Check 09-2004

Bracket Air Filter
Prop Guard
Wheel Pants
New Comm Antenna

Avionics:

Dual MX300s with a 3rd MX300 Spare (all 3 work fine)
Loc/GS/VOR
Cessna ADF
Garmin GTX-327 Xpdr
King Audio Panel w/ Marker Beacons
Intercom

According to my uncle, who knows the owner and has flown with him, the plane is in immaculate shape and the owner has spared no expense to keep it that way. His kids got their PPLs and instrument ratings in the plane and he recently bought a twin so wants to sell this one.

He is asking in the neighborhood of $25k for the plane. AOPA's VRef says something near 30k.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

-matt



*on the top overhaul 200 hours after the major: the previous owner had a 'major' done without doing the top. He put 200 hours on the plane over the course of 9 years. The current owner noticed oil blowing down on the fuselage, so he had a complete top overhaul done. Compression is supposedly where it should be and there are no known problems with the engine.

It sounds interesting enough, Matt!

Glad you joined the best source of 150 information on the net before you buy!

You're going to get plenty of good advice here, and plenty of food for thought. Charles Hanna is the resident guru and more current on the regs than most of us. I question the validity of calling the engine 700 SMOH, considering the way you explained the "half and half" method!

Charles, can a mechanic split an overhaul this way, doing the top at a later date, and then sign off the engine as overhauled? Certainly still 700 hours total, but which date constitutes the overhaul? I've never heard of an engine accumulating 210 hours "during" an overhaul before!

Carl - thanks for yuor reply. Here is all I know about the 'split overhaul'. It does sound strange. I don't have immediate access to the engine logs, but here is what my uncle sent me:

I just spoke with (mechanic for last 5 years), who maintains the 150 regarding the engine times.

The engine was "majored" with the exception of the cylinders at the request of the previous owner. The aircraft then logged only about 200 or so hours over the next 8 to 9 years, i.e. it essentially sat.

(new owner) purchased the plane, and immediately noticed that the engine was throwing oil on the bottom of the fuselage. During the next annual, they had low compression on one cylinder and found a burnt ex. valve; which was corrected with a rebuilt cylinder. The expectation that the oil throwing would stop did not happen, so they removed all four cylinders, sent them out for complete rebuild with new pistons, etc.

Since the final top overhaul, there has been no problem, nor any oil throwing from the engine. Because they like to keep the oil topped, they also added the air-oil separator at that time. Whenever high oil is stirred or splashed in a crankcase, there is a tendency for the oil breather to pass it out and dirty the bottom of the airplane. Because they didn't know if the oil throwing was caused by breather issues or cylinder issues, they wanted to make sure they fixed the problem, and prevented it in the future. Between the new top overhaul and the air-oil separator, the oil stays inside the engine, and everything appears to be really great.

One thing I found to be very important is to have a mechanic without any interest in the plane do a pre-buy inspection. That saved me thousands. The owner of that plane thought it was in great condition, but they found some un-airworthy work that the owner's A&P had performed among other issues. It does sound like it's been maintained well.
As for the cost comparison, don't forget the safety and convenience of owning. The plane is ready to go whenever you are. I had a couple scary experiences in rentals and just about stopped flying until I bought 40S. Then I finished up the PPL.

Thanks for your reply, Eric. I'm interested in hearing what owners are experiencing as far as ongoing costs are concerned.

Insurance, tiedown, fuel, oil, etc... are easy to predict (I have them already). I plan to keep the plane for 300 hours give or take, then sell it, hopefully recovering the majority of what I pay for it. I can afford routine service, but it's really going to hurt if I have to replace the engine or have it overhauled.

I am also in the process of buying a 150 (provided I can find a good one ). I agree, the pre-buy is worth the cost. It will save you a lot of trouble later. Also, don't get your hopes up too high on this one. Something may happen where you need to let it go. Use your head and listen to what these guys tell you, they have some great advice.

Looks good to me. Of course you want a pre-buy inspection. There are NO guarantees that the engine won't crater on you in the next hour after you buy it, but from your description it looks pretty sound.

Geo.

Now posting under my newly activated account.

Thanks for the pre-buy advice - I agree I need to do that. Any idea what I should expect to pay to have it done?

-matt

Matt, where you are located plays a part in cost. Each area of the country seams to have different rates. I would treat it like an annual and then you know for sure. Texas ranges from $300-600.00 depending. Let us know where you are at and we might be able to steer you in the right direction.

Ditto all of the above.

If you can find a copy of this book, pick one up. A little dated, but packed full of information.

Tips on Buying Cessna Singles
Alton K. Marsh
1990
ISBN 0-916413-17-9
Pages appx 150
8.5 x 11 paperback

Matt,

For what it's worth...

I convinced myself that purchasing a plane would expedite my efforts to complete my PPL, but the truth is that N46241 [users.adelphia.net] has taken a lot of my time and energy away from the specific task of getting my PPL. Nagging radio troubles, a new dg, owner assisted annual, couple of weeks waiting on parts, New England weather, CFI availability, and job demands have all had a huge impact.

I?ve learned a ton becoming an owner and would do it again in a heartbeat, but ownership has plenty of demands and short term risks that may impact negatively on your training schedule.

The last thing I do before closing my hanger door is take one last look at N46241? Man is she beautiful? Pure joy? It?s a great privilege to call her mine.

-jeff

Jim - thanks for the book info - I'll check it out.

Dale - I'm just down the road from you - Denton. The plane is near Houston, though, so I'd need it inspected there before flying it back.

Jeff - yeah, that's what I'm struggling with. I know it's going to take time and effort to keep it in good shape. But the idea of having a plane available when I want (breakdowns notwithstanding) sounds so daggum compelling. Our last two weekends have been fantastic - I can't imagine trying to compete for rentals on those days.

Jeff.
Great web site you have there. You summed up aircraft ownership in your last line perfectly.

Jim, just bought the book you recommended on Amazon for $10.50. Thanks again for the tip.

-matt

Wow, I've been renting basically two 152s for over a year while getting my PPL. I have had questions about some issues, but over-all (how would I know) they seem fine.
This is where my knowledge breaks down...and is holding me up from buying.

The A&P that worked those planes has "moved on".
I was going to ask him about a pre-buy when I found one that looked like a decent buy.

Now I read the forum and the Newsletter and Mike's book and AOPA magazines, and ....you get the picture.

At the advice of some folks in the club, I've bought the A&P handbooks while I wait for knowledge to accumulate or an epiphany.

Chris,

I too rented 152s and they always 'seemed fine'. Problem is, as a student, I never once looked at the logbooks and didn't really care to. Who knows how much work was done on them between the times I flew?

So I'm just trying to get a feel for how much really goes wrong on a regular basis. My impression so far is that generally speaking, a well cared-for plane shouldn't cost more than a few thousand a year in annuals and minor squawks - until soemthing major goes tits-up. Then all hell breaks loose financially.

I understand. I've run the numbers. The AOPA sight has a "Buyers cost list" embedded in a long document with some good advice, but I found one that I thought was better.

Sheet 1 is theirs, and sheet 2 is my version.

Chris, Thanks, I'll take a look.

Your signature says looking for a 152. Are you set on a 152 instead of a 150 - and if so, why? Just curious. I really liked the 152s I was learning in. Too daggum slow, but fun enough.

I also sent an email to AOPA asking for an explanation of the avionics cost estimate since it is based on something like 5% of the cost divided by 500 hours.
In my mind, this number should be exagerated some.

The folks in this forum should be able to shed some light.

Chris, I just noticed $112 oil changes on your spreadsheet - you can do your own oil changes, you know. Well sort of. As long as you are cleaning a filter or checking a chip detector (i.e., magnetic drain plug) (both allowed activities by owners), then the oil will necessarily drain from the engine in the process. Owners can top up their own oil :-)

I'll keep looking at that spreadsheet. Interesting because the numbers are higher than I expected. I'll have to see where we are different.

Matt,
All of my flying has been in 152s (1981) with "pre-sets" on the navcoms (I still don't know what they're called). After 90 hours and flying in snow, rain, cross country's when a plug needed clearing 70 miles from the FBO, air so smooth that I thought something was wrong with the plane, something like 50 stalls (03M stalls ride - hard right, and 92Q is typically better behaved), engine and power outs in the dark, deer or fox on the rwy during solo landings, stuck mics with 3 nearby airports on the same freq...well you get the picture. They have been there for me (and been kind too), so I guess I'm partial.

The AP owner actually offered to sell me 92Q, but when I ask him now he doesn't really answer.

Here's the full AOPA document.

P.S. That Aerobat in this months Newsletter has me losng sleep.

Yeah, I now have the full story since I joined this club.
A lot of owner maintenance can be done. I was surprised.

My last annual was about $2,500, but I had them do some extra stuff (that he said it would need next year). One thing I learned for sure, look at the airframe as carefully as the engine. While shopping for a 150 or 152, I was mainly concerned with the engine time. In the end, I actually bought the plane with about 1600 SMOH and 550 STOH. Note that many O-200s will need a top end around 1100 hours and you will see them for sale like that. The mechanic is convinced that this one will go well past TBO safely. There are never any guarantees and I've heard of engines needing overhauls well before then.


The last owners sank alot of time and money into the plane(mostly the airframe) and it's been good so far. Don't forget the paperwork. I paid about $500.00 to have her weighed for a new W&B.

As for other expenses, you will WANT to spend more than you can on airplane stuff It pays to shop around. Last week I bought a battery that was $105.00 complete including shipping for Aircraft Spruce. It was $175.00 (plus $16.00 for acid) at a local airport...and you can do some of the mantenance yourself. There hasn't been any unexpected expenses so far....knock on wood. 40S lives in the cheapest hangar at the airport and I think it is well worth the extra expense even if I have to drag a couple planes out of the way sometimes to fly. The last owners hangared her, too.

Not that I know of. The engine manufacturer defines what an overhaul consists of, and Continental says that the required replacement of certain parts and overhaul of certain accessories, among other things makes it an overhaul.

http://www.tcmlink.com/pdf2/SB97-6.pdf

You would have to do all of the work at the same time and sign it off that way, otherwise you have a bits and pieces repair of the engine (IRAN, inspect and repair as necessary). Not saying that is a bad thing, just that it is NOT an overhaul.

Charles

Ummm...guys...does this mean if you have a quick drain and not a magnetic plug you are not allowed to change your oil? I would hope that I could drain and refill the oil to make sure no contaminates enter the oil when you replace the oil filter. Actually, in the FAQ section on owner maintenance, I don't see where you can even top off your engine oil.

Matt, another factor in buying vs. renting is that love is blind. Once you buy your 150/152 and fall in love with it you won't even keep track of how much you spend, becuase owning it is Priceless. I only wished I bought sooner. I spent 20K on rental and instruction in a year and then realized I should buy. Flying is an addiction, How bad do you have it?

It's in FAR Part 43 Appendix 'A'. Hereya go:


(c) Preventive maintenance. Preventive maintenance is limited to the following work, provided it does not involve complex assembly operations:
(1) Removal, installation, and repair of landing gear tires.
(2) Replacing elastic shock absorber cords on landing gear.
(3) Servicing landing gear shock struts by adding oil, air, or both.
(4) Servicing landing gear wheel bearings, such as cleaning and greasing.
(5) Replacing defective safety wiring or cotter keys.
(6) Lubrication not requiring disassembly other than removal of nonstructural items such as cover plates, cowlings, and fairings.
(7) Making simple fabric patches not requiring rib stitching or the removal of structural parts or control surfaces. In the case of balloons, the making of small fabric repairs to envelopes (as defined in, and in accordance with, the balloon manufacturers' instructions) not requiring load tape repair or replacement.
(8) Replenishing hydraulic fluid in the hydraulic reservoir.
(9) Refinishing decorative coating of fuselage, balloon baskets, wings tail group surfaces (excluding balanced control surfaces), fairings, cowlings, landing gear, cabin, or cockpit interior when removal or disassembly of any primary structure or operating system is not required.
(10) Applying preservative or protective material to components where no disassembly of any primary structure or operating system is involved and where such coating is not prohibited or is not contrary to good practices.
(11) Repairing upholstery and decorative furnishings of the cabin, cockpit, or balloon basket interior when the repairing does not require disassembly of any primary structure or operating system or interfere with an operating system or affect the primary structure of the aircraft.
(12) Making small simple repairs to fairings, nonstructural cover plates, cowlings, and small patches and reinforcements not changing the contour so as to interfere with proper air flow.
(13) Replacing side windows where that work does not interfere with the structure or any operating system such as controls, electrical equipment, etc.
(14) Replacing safety belts.
(15) Replacing seats or seat parts with replacement parts approved for the aircraft, not involving disassembly of any primary structure or operating system.
(16) Trouble shooting and repairing broken circuits in landing light wiring circuits.
(17) Replacing bulbs, reflectors, and lenses of position and landing lights.
(18) Replacing wheels and skis where no weight and balance computation is involved.
(19) Replacing any cowling not requiring removal of the propeller or disconnection of flight controls.
(20) Replacing or cleaning spark plugs and setting of spark plug gap clearance.
(21) Replacing any hose connection except hydraulic connections.
(22) Replacing prefabricated fuel lines.
(23) Cleaning or replacing fuel and oil strainers or filter elements.
(24) Replacing and servicing batteries.
(25) Cleaning of balloon burner pilot and main nozzles in accordance with the balloon manufacturer's instructions.
(26) Replacement or adjustment of nonstructural standard fasteners incidental to operations.
(27) The interchange of balloon baskets and burners on envelopes when the basket or burner is designated as interchangeable in the balloon type certificate data and the baskets and burners are specifically designed for quick removal and installation.
(28) The installations of anti-misfueling devices to reduce the diameter of fuel tank filler openings provided the specific device has been made a part of the aircraft type certificate data by the aircraft manufacturer, the aircraft manufacturer has provided FAA-approved instructions for installation of the specific device, and installation does not involve the disassembly of the existing tank filler opening.
(29) Removing, checking, and replacing magnetic chip detectors.
(30) The inspection and maintenance tasks prescribed and specifically identified as preventive maintenance in a primary category aircraft type certificate or supplemental type certificate holder's approved special inspection and preventive maintenance program when accomplished on a primary category aircraft provided:
(i) They are performed by the holder of at least a private pilot certificate issued under part 61 who is the registered owner (including co-owners) of the affected aircraft and who holds a certificate of competency for the affected aircraft (1) issued by a school approved under Sec. 147.21(e) of this chapter; (2) issued by the holder of the production certificate for that primary category aircraft that has a special training program approved under Sec. 21.24 of this subchapter; or (3) issued by another entity that has a course approved by the Administrator; and
(ii) The inspections and maintenance tasks are performed in accordance with instructions contained by the special inspection and preventive maintenance program approved as part of the aircraft's type design or supplemental type design.
(31) Removing and replacing self-contained, front instrument panel-mounted navigation and communication devices that employ tray-mounted connectors that connect the unit when the unit is installed into the instrument panel, (excluding automatic flight control systems, transponders, and microwave frequency distance measuring equipment (DME)). The approved unit must be
designed to be readily and repeatedly removed and replaced, and pertinent instructions must be provided. Prior to the unit's intended use, and operational check must be performed in accordance with the applicable sections of part 91 of this chapter.
(32) Updating self-contained, front instrument panel-mounted Air Traffic Control (ATC) navigational software data bases (excluding those of automatic flight control systems, transponders, and microwave frequency distance measuring equipment (DME)) provided no disassembly of the unit is required and pertinent instructions are provided. Prior to the unit's intended use, an operational check must be performed in accordance with applicable sections of part 91 of this chapter.

I also spoke with Rick Hestilow, who some of you likely remember as the creator of the TOPCAT program (topcat.com), which is an STC that allows an owner, with 24 hours of training, to complete a whole lot more maintenance than that listed in Part 43. Stuff like alternators, starters, mags, etc... Virtually anything that doesn't involve opening the crankcase.

Thanks for the reply Matt, but maybe I'm not reading something correctly. I see where you can change the oil filter or strainer, where you can inspect a magnetic chip detector, and top off hydraulic oil but I still don't see where you can top off the engine oil.

I was just looking at the Topcat site ( http://www.topcatschool.com/ ), it looks like it is well worth the money.

[color:"blue"] "(6) Lubrication not requiring disassembly other than removal of nonstructural items such as cover plates, cowlings, and fairings." [/color]

What is adding oil if not lubrication?

Thanks, I thought that might be it. It sounds like I might need to remove my quick drain and buy a magnetic plug. It seems kind of odd that you can remove and replace the filter, add oil, but not drain the oil.

Am I right in assuming that I need to do that in order to legally change my oil and filter?

As some of your might remember, Rick Hestilow (TOPCAT Schools), was one of our seminar speakers a couple of years ago in Clinton. He is a great guy and very willing to help answer questions and help wherever needed.

No, Eric, you don't need to buy a magnetic chip detector. Most chip detectors in small aircraft merely replace and are in affect the drain plug. It's understood that if you can service a chip detector, you can service a drain plug.

I understand why you're looking for a literal interpretation that specifically states exactly what you can and cannot do, but the regs apply to most general aviation aircraft flown for pleasure such as ours, and therefore are more general rather than that specific in nature. You may change the oil and filter on your aircraft in it's existing configuration, and you can sign it off in the logs. I can only recommend that you do the first one under direct supervision, sign it off yourself, and have your mechanic co-sign your entry documenting his instruction and approval.

Thank you Carl. I did my last oil change myself and entered it in the log when I should have double checked the legality first (a local A&P told me it was ok before I did it). I know how the government can be, so the definitions of preventative maintenance in part 43 that I saw here made me a bit nervous.

That STC for Topcat still looks like a winner. Has anyone here actually gone through with it?

I talked to Rick Hestilow (for more than an hour!) a couple days ago. His TOPCAT program is on indefinite hold because of several issues, not the least of which is that he has no time because of a big multiyear project at the school where he teaches.

He didn't renew the lease on his training hangar and so will need to get approval from the FAA when/if he gets a new facility.

He said interest in the program was lower than he expected, but provided an easy explanation: As it is now, the STC requires that the student actually /do/ the maintenance tasks on /their/ airplanes as part of the class. That is, you have to pull and reinstall the starter, alternator, yada yada yada. Kind of pointless and risky if they aren't broken (stripped stud anyone?).

Another downside is that you'd have to fly your plane to Dallas - easy for surrounding states, but who wants to fly from Seattle to Dallas just to tear the plane apart for a class?

So he got some sort of preliminary approval to conduct the classes using 'training aids' (a stand-mounted engine, for example). I got the impression this would be a big investment.

The bottom line is that the TOPCAT enables owners to legally do many things they've done all along (on the sly). Generally, I'd have no problem replacing a starter illegally. The problem is, I couldn't put it in the logs and it could raise flags at annual time or with a future buyer. A lot of guys that change their own oil don't log it because they mistakenly believe they aren't allowed to do it. Try selling a plane that shows no oil changes in the last 500 hours!

An interesting sidenote is that TOPCAT is the first STC in history that modifies the owner, not the airplane. Once the STC is issued, the owner can work on any 150/152 that he is an owner (or partial owner) of, even after selling the original STC'd plane.

Okay, Rick Hestilow just emailed me. In addition to the Appendix 'A' work, the STC allows C150/152/172 owners to perform the following:

List of items included on TOPCAT Primary Category STC (STC SA09643SA, Rev. 1 & STC SA10114SC) for Cessna Model 150/152 and 172 Series aircraft

1. Replacement of flexible air ducting.
2. Replacement of static discharge wicks.
3. Replacement of fuel quick drains and filter cap gaskets and seals.
4. Replacement of Hour/Hobbs meter.
5. Replacement of brake pads, disc brakes.
6. Replacement of propellers.
7. Performance of engine cylinder compression check.
8. Replacement of engine accessory belts.
9. Engine oil change.
10. Replacement of navigation and communications radios where alterations to electrical circuitry are not required.
11. Removal of exhaust manifolds for gasket replacement as long as removal of other components is not required.
12. Replacement of starters.
13. Replacement of alternators.
14. Replacement of generators.
15. Replacement of vacuum pumps.
16. Fabrication/replacement of ? -inch diameter of less hard lines, regardless of their use (i.e., fuel, electrical, hydraulic, vent, vacuum, etc.).
17. Check control cable condition and tension (rigging or adjustment is not permissible).
18. Windshield scratch removal.
19. Sheet metal repair of aircraft skin damage of less than 2 inches.
20. Bleeding of brake system.
21. Replacement of engine rocker box cover and rocker box cover gaskets.
22. Replacement of engine and vacuum system air filters.
23. Service and or replacement of shimmy damper.
24. Lubrication and or replacement of the tachometer cable.
25. Replacement of the voltage regulator.
26. Removal or installation of the approved wheel pants with appropriate weight and balance computations and changes in the aircraft?s weight and balance records and the aircraft?s equipment list.
27. Cleaning the air / oil separator when installed.
28. Installation of approved oil quick drains and their replacement.


That's a whole buncha gas you can buy with those labor savings!

Why is engine oil change listed? Is this a gray area and we really aren't supposed to be doing it?

It's not really a grey area. You can do your oil as described earlier. This STC was written to make it more clear - because if it wasn't on this list, you'd still be in oil change limbo (even with the STC).

Side note:

Just saw this as part of an airplane ad (for a homebuilt). Tell me this doesn't sound like a propstrike:


Engine / Prop
Lyc. 0-320-150 hp, with about 300 hrs since complete overhaul but about 35hrs since rebuild with a new crank. (I chose to keep it at 150 hp because of the impending loss of Av Gas). Sensenich metal prop, approx 35hrs since new.

Thanks Matt. That ad sounds like a 150 I looked at with a new prop and he had no paperwork (to back up his claim that it was just worn out) or old prop to show me. That scared me away from it.

If the engine has a new crank since it happened, would a prop strike still be a problem?

Well I'm not a mechanic, but I assume that as long as the crankcase seals and bearings were replaced and the case wasn't cracked, then it would likely be okay.

But the lack of candor is worth worrying about. He might be forgetting to tell you about those fatigue cracks he found last week.

Depends upon who you ask. According to Rick Hestilow, the FAA turns a blind-eye towards 'un-allowed' oil changes by non-mechanics. So he incorporated it into the STC so there would be no ambiguity.

The FAA's opinion can be found in Advisory Circular 43-12A which says, in part,

Items 6 and 23 (Part 43, Appendix A, paragraph (c)). These items permit the draining and reservicing of oil, and the removal, cleaning and reinstallation of oil screens, filters, and strainers in an aircraft oil system to be done as preventive maintenance, and are subject to the provisions of Sections 43.13(a) and (b).

However, Advisory Ciculars are only advisory, not law. It's not likely one would run afoul of the Feds over changing the oil, but Rick Hestilow wanted to make sure.

I don't understand this. Why does the owner's plane get moved from standard category to "special," if the STC allows the owner to work on any 150/152 that he subsequently owns without having to STC that aircraft to special? What impact does the STC have on market value of the airplane when it comes time to sell? Can the aircraft be moved back to the standard airworthiness certificate at a later time? I believe Canada has a similar program and I seem to recall the airplane takes a hit when it comes time to sell.

I'd be much more interested in Topcat if it didn't change the airworthiness certificate of my airplane and it truly just applied to my qualification to work on the 150/152.

Reread the quote, Tim!

It's a "special" STC on the owner (kinda like an endorsement, but not)!

It's NOT an STC on the airplane the owner happens to own at the time.

Methinks the STC and move from primary category are because that's the only way to do it within the existing paper-blizzard infrastructure at the FAA.

It is true that the airplane is reclassified to primary category - I think that's so it fits into that line-item in appendix 'A' that mentions primary category. Any subsequent airplane would also be moved into that category before the owner could work on it. Moving it back is easy according to Rick Hestilow.

TOPCAT recertifies the airplane in the Primary Category. This was (in my view) the FAA's first attempt at Light Sport Aircraft. Unfortunately, it (along with the Recreational License) never took off. No pun intended.

A Primary Category aircraft is one that is simple enough to allow the qualified owner to perform more tasks than currently allowed. To work on a Primary Category plane, one must receive proper training. Thus, the 'STC' on the person. This is not a blanket rating, however. The current or subsequent aircraft must be in the Primary Category for the 'STCed'-owner to be legally able to work on them.

Part of the expense of the TOPCAT course, in addition to the training, is an extensive annual inspection of the plane to certify it in the Primary Category. However, it remains a certified plane and can be converted back to Standard (or Utility) category by a subsequent A&P/IA.

This is different than the Canadian model. Their method is not to change the airplane's category, but to decertify it entirely. Indeed, X's are stamped over the engine and airframe serial numbers to reinforce that fact. For most intents and purposes, it becomes much like a homebuilt experimental.

While this offers some great freedoms as far as who can work on the plane and what materials they may use, it also comes with liabilities. One, the FAA doesn't allow such planes to come into US airspace - homebuilts are inspected and certified by the FAA/CAA, but these planes are not. Two, resale is an issue. And three, it's a one-way trip. It's next to impossible to recertify such a plane since, in effect, you have to re-prove that every single nut and bolt meets certified standards.

While I like the idea of TOPCAT, for me the list of approved repair items is still too short. It's more a problem of FAA bureaucracy. For example, Rick Hestilow had a very hard time getting valve cover gasket replacement added as an approved task. The FAA types didn't like the idea of non-mechanics opening up the engine. Rick argued that if the gasket repair was faulty, then the engine would leak oil. However, exhaust gaskets (which they had already approved), if done wrong would leak fire! They grudgingly agreed and added the item to the list.

And that's the problem - they approve specific tasks, rather than defining abilities. It's like the current list of Owner Approved Maintenance. One can change a tire or spark plugs, but is not allowed to change an air filter. Never mind that one has demonstrated the ability to change the filter by virtue of changing tires and plugs. Doesn't matter - air filter is not on the list, therefore it's not allowed.

The TOPCAT program has a list of tasks that require some good abilities, abilities that can easily translate to other parts of the airplane. But since those other tasks don't appear in the list, they can't be done. Too shortsighted and limited in my view.

Carl and Kirk,
Thanks for the clarification, I understand now. I knew the Canadian system opened up a can of worms and made it difficult to return the aircraft to its original airworthiness certification and I assumed a similar problem with TOPCAT. I wonder how your average IA would look at a primary category aircraft come time for annual. Several I know don't want anything to do with experimentals so I wonder how many would shy away from something that's had a lot of maintenance accomplished on it by a minimally trained mechanic.

I don't mind inspecting experimentals as long as the airframe construction is with materials and methods I'm familiar with. I need to be familiar with the engines and props, too. I'm getting more familiar with the Rotax's more and more every day.

When we look at an aircraft, we're (IAs) making sure the aircraft and all attached components conform to the type design, and that it is PRESENTLY in an airworthy condition. A minimally trained, non certificated mechanic (owner) has more to lose by doing things wrong than a lot of the supposedly maximally trained, certificated mechanics. The owners may have minimal training, but they're not out there overhauling the engines or replacing the wing spar. They're doing simple (or relatively simple) things. I've never put a mag on wrong that ran right. Starters and alternators are even more fool proof. Get the wiring messed up and it won't work correctly. I'd like to see owners be allowed to do more maintenance. Just like us mechanics, they should do it the first time under supervision, then they own the skill.

That said, we all know tinkerers who have no business tinkering. That would be the only drawback. Kinda like one guy messing it up for everyone.

Different mechanics have different comfort levels with what they'll do and/or sign off. Ask one to go outside that comfort zone and you're asking for trouble.

My two and a half cents...

I just received a lenghty email from Rick and I thought some people here might be interested. The attatchment he mentions is the same 28 items listed in this thread already.

Eric,

Thanks for your email. Please allow me to tell you a short story. Several months ago the hangar that I used at Hicks Airfield was sold, and the new owner and I couldn?t work out a good agreement for TOPCAT School?s continued use of the facility. At about the same time Tarrant County College (TCC) asked me to work on a National Science Foundation (NSF) project that they were the lead college on. TCC is the community college that serves Fort Worth, Texas and the surrounding area. TCC has an A&P program that is 36 years old and is, according to the FAA, the highest rated A&P program in the state. The NSF project was to be known as the National Center for Aircraft Technician Training (NCATT). It was a great opportunity and I agreed to work on the project. I became the project?s ?Business Liaison?, the project?s ?Grant Writer? and ?Coordinator of Special Projects, Aeronautical Technology Department?. The proposal that I submitted to NSF was selected and funded by the NSF. I then became, and am, the ?National Director of Accreditation and Certification? for NCATT. As you might suspect, I?ve been busy. If you?re interested take a look at the NCATT website at www.ncatt.org [ncatt.org], it?s a continuing work in progress.

Back to what both of us are interested in, TOPCAT School. I?ve never abandon the project. Having had a long association with TCC (from 1980 to the present) I suspected that I might be able to work out an agreement with TCC through which the TOPCAT School Program could come back into existence. I'm in the process of developing that partnership agreement now. When the details are worked out I'll be able to use the classrooms, laboratory and equipment (training aids) that we use in the college?s A&P program. It will be the same equipment that we train A&P mechanics on. It will make the TOPCAT School program a lot better, and we won't have to worry about breaking "real" airplanes in the training process. It also means that owners won?t have to fly their airplanes from all over the country. It also means that the program should cost several hundred dollars less. The down side is it will cover only the owner training. The owner will still have to contact their local FAA office to convert their airplane to the ?Primary Category?, but with the training completed, ?Certificate of Competency? issued and signed-off, and the STC and instructions from the Fort Worth FAA FSDO to the owner?s FAA FSDO providing instructions on that process in hand, the owner will be in good shape.



I?ll keep you informed. I?ve also received FAA approval for several more items to be included in the list of ?preventive maintenance? items that are a part of the TOPCAT School STC for C-150/152 aircraft. I?ve attached the new items to this email.



Thanks again, and I?ll let you know when the partnership is completed, and classes are offered.



Rick

Wow, did not know this is very local to me. The TCC campus [tccd.edu] this may be offered thru is less than 15 min. away, in traffic. Also about a mile from Meacham Airport, BTW GoogleMap [maps.google.com]. (map also includes my house and work site) I personally do not need this STC/training, but if anyone needs a close by contact for shoe leather work, I am here. I used to train at a school on Hicks, but they let me down, maintenance-wise.