Hi, I've looked at a 1977 C-152 that had 10,500 TTAF about 2000hrs since the last major overhaul and a damage history in 1982 Emergency landing , ran into a fence and nosed over "substantial damage". The guy wanted 20000 for it, the mechanic said it was in good condition. My friend said with that many hours he wouldn't buy it for 15000. What do you guys think? I'm a student pilot with about 20 hrs so I really don't know a whole lot about this stuff.

Thanks,

John

If that were, say, a piper Tomahawk I'd throw it away. Useless after 11,000 hours.

Now, Cessna 150s and 152s are much much better airplanes. No hour restrictions at all. 10,500 hours is not a big deal. Damage history isn't either. It's obviously flown in the past 25 years since the emergency landing, wouldn't bad repairs rear their ugly head by now (YES!).

The only deal on this is the relatively high time engine, which I still wouldn't have an issue with as the O-235 is bulletproof and constantly makes it WELL past TBO.

Do you think metal fatigue could be an issue with that many hours?

John,

Welcome to the club.

The questions you ask are very valid, and yes, it is my opinion that 20000 is way too much for that plane.

1977 Cessna 152
10500 TTAF
2000 SMOH
It's been over on its back and damaged substantially?

Yep, the high time itself isn't a deal breaker. My 150/150 taildragger has 14000 plus hours. And it, too had nose damage. So much that they didn't put the nosewheel back on.

That engine has, provided it's put together with 100 percent genuine Lycoming parts, a 2400 hour TBO. O-235's are a good engine, but require attention to the details during periodic maintenance. Figure an overhaul to come out around 12-16 thousand dollars. If you overhauled the engine, you'd still have a 10500 hour airframe, damage history (which is a subject for heated debate for the fine folks here), and, say, 35000 invested...and that's for a stock plane with high time... Look elsewhere. There are nice planes out there, waaaayyy nicer than this one.

Even if this one had a spectacular new 10000 paint job, I'd say "see ya down the road". For 25000, you can get a very nice plane.

Back to your original concerns, the high time, in itself, is not a problem as long as the airframe has been taken care of. The engine being at 2000 is high, but, there again, not that bad of a concern. The fact that it flipped over and probably dinged up the engine, prop, spinner, engine mount/nose gear, vertical stabilizer, and wing tips. If those were properly repaired, structurally, it is as good as new. But, damage history (or more importantly, the words themselves) is like picking a piece of candy up off the floor. It still tastes good, but the stigma that goes along with it makes you look around before you pick it up to see if anyone is watching.

When you add up the high engine time, the high airframe time, and the potential for problems due to a hard life, you would be well served to walk away, and look elsewhere. If you bought it for 15000 dollars, you could probably sell it again for 15000 dollars, even if you put another 200 hours on it. But, it's one heck of a gamble.

Good luck with your search for a plane, John.

The high airframe time would not bother me at all. Nor the damage history, (It has been flying since 1982 so obviously things were fixed properly.) That 2000 hours on the engine is getting up there, but still 400 hours until just recommended overhaul. And the engine still should go through at least one more top overhaul before a major is required. So no major red flags in my book if it passes a good annual inspection by a mechanic that YOU know and trust. Though, I think I would try to dicker the seller down a couple thousand........

For my 2 bits worth,, the airframe time isn't a concern,, The engine time, personnaly I'd want a lower time engine,, unless the dollars reflect the hours,, The damage history,, if done just lately,, I'd be probably looking somewhere's else,, history from 20 to 30 yrs ago,, wouldn't bother me, I'd have my mechanic check it out to ensure it was done as per repairs manuals,, and if done correctly,, I say to myself that in a way, maybe not a bad thing,, Just think,, some of the airframe parts,, are newer then the age of the aircraft. Fast forward to this forum in 10 years time,, by that time there will probably a lot more in the 10 to 15 thousand hour range,, I bet that more will say,, 10,000 hrs,, not a bad airframe time. As in all cases,, dollars reflect the value of the plane. Sellers need to understand this well. Put 2 planes side by side,, both same paint, same engine time,, same year, but 1 has 2500 hours, the other has 7500 hours,, you know which one everyone is going to look at. So sellers need to realize that. The one suggestion that someone gave you that they wouldn't even pay $15,000 for it,, well without seeing what were talking about,, someones out to lunch.

I bought my '80 152 in March 2001. At that time, it had 9000 TTAF and 2000 SMOH. The seller asked $20K; I offered $19K and he accepted it on the spot. I guess I could've talked it down a little more. But I used to rent it in the previous 6 years and I know it's a good plane, so I didn't haggle too hard. My plane now has over 9400 TTAF and the engine is 30 hours past TBO. Still running trouble-free.

Try talking the price down. I think you probably can get it for $17K-$18K.

Two years ago I bought my 80" 152. It had about 13,000 hrs on the airframe and 2,000 on the engine. It was owned most of its life by a flight school where I also trained. All control rigging was replaced around 12,000 hrs. In talking with the chief mechanic, he felt that there was no need to replace the cables, after inspecting the old rigging after the job was completed. I have done 2 owner assisted annuals on the plane and there is no concern about the airframe hrs. I paid $20,000 for the plane. It was hangared all its life. A good soure for information is to go to the AOPA website and do an aircraft valuation.
Jim Hatzenbeller (6125B)

As you've heard here, John, the issues you're concerned about don't raise any red flags individually. Anyone familiar with 152's knows there's nothing that can't be properly repaired on them, and there are no metal fatique issues with 150's or 152's. However, collectively, $20k is too much to pay for these issues, especially since at some point you will likely want to sell the plane for whatever reason. Most of your future prospective buyers won't even consider buying this plane for the same reasons you're questioning them now. Most of us are prepared to take a hit at resale time, but with the issues this plane has, you will have to wait much longer to find a buyer, and may have to take a much bigger hit, especially as the engine reaches TBO and beyond.

Short story? There are much better deals out there for very little more money! Regardless of inflated valuation on a few websites, there are beautiful 152's out there with half the times for $25K and less, if you're patient enough to keep looking.

Also, don't limit yourself to 152s. 150s are mighty fine airplanes and are usually found with lower time AND much cheaper.

And will out perform 152's pound for pound of payload!

..........Climbing into my flaming armor............

This doesn't happen to be an airplane you are training in, does it? If so, walk away now....emotional attachment can be a terrible motivator.

If not, I like some others would have not problem with what you describe other than the price is too high considering you have an overhaul coming up. If it was a 1000-1200 hour engine, I would think that to be a pretty good deal.

If this plane is expensive at 2000 hours at $20K...but a good deal if it had 1000 hours -- then half an engine job is worth $5K??

I would think that there should be a linear relationship between hours and dollars -- given a fresh engine is $15K.

Yes, there's a linear relationship between hours and dollars. But I don't see how you deduced from Jeff's statment that half an engine job is worth $5K.

John you're new to this game. So, keep asking questions and looking till you find the right plane at the right price!

I look at engine times a different way. If I love the airplane, how many years can I fly it before an overhaul, rather than the linear dollar difference you mention. Additionally, I then add to that....will I have saved enough by then to do it.

My Cardinal was on the borderline. I could sell it for $57,000 (bought it for $53K and flew it two years), but in another 2 or 3 years, I would be overhauling it at a cost of about $20-25K. Now I have a $80K investment in an airplane that would be worth about $70-75K, so I decided to sell it.

The Cherokee, that was just a bone head deal. Just got my annual bill of close to $4K due to repairs needed from years of marginal maintenence. So, I paid $37K, have about $8K more into it after the engine work (and it had a 160 hour engine when I bought it), so I am sitting at $45K. Bad investment....maybe, maybe not. I will still have $35K LESS cash invested into the airplane. It is a low time airframe and now the engine is up to snuff with years of flying in it. Market today is about $42K to $47K so I am probably upside down a few grand, but I know what I have and hopefully it will suit my purposes for many years to come.

Oh...by the way....I have started working on an STC to move the wing on top of the fuselage, but getting some resistence from the FAA about those 7 foot long gear leg extensions. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

An "overhaul" can range from $6k to $20+k, but usually falls somewhere between $8k and $15K on an O-235. "Value" and "worth" are relative terms, and mean different things to different people (including mechanics). On average, yes, $5k should pay for about half of a 4-cylinder overhaul.

I'm also looking at 150s though I prefer the ones from the late 70's. It's hard to find something nice for a reasonable price. It seems that most of the listings I've seen are from CA or TX. I'm trying to find something close to KY.

Patience is a virtue that's for sure. On the other hand when you do see something nice you have to move pretty quickly. I've procrastinated in the past and missed a couple of good deals

I'm taking it all in! There's a lot to learn.

I've never flown in this airplane but I do know it was owned by the FBO, that's where the current owner got it from. I think he put about 300 hours on it. I'm supposed to meet him tomorrow and take another look at it. Then I'll offer him 15k. He told me he wasn't very flexible on his price, he was goining to ask 22K for it. Of course he knows I don't know too much about things. I'm actually training in a 172 at another airport.

Here's a tip, John!

Switch over to "Flat" mode (top right on the page), and you can see all of the posts in this thread at one time. You don't have to make multiple posts!

BTW, the wife and I are from Somerset!

Good question...I had to think about it again The current "offer" is 2000 hours on the engine @ 20K...which people think is too high.

If the same plane went for 15K, it's perceived to be a good deal.

Other people state that if the engine had 1000 hours on the engine, then it might be worth $20K

So I thought the difference was 1000 hours (or ~ half of TBO) which was being evaluated at $5K

This seems to make sense as an O/H is in the range of $10K

This is ultimately what I don't understand. Jeff, who would buy the aircraft from you as the "market" would come to the same conclusion that you came to?

For 150's - why would someone pay $22,000 for an engine with 400 before TBO when they'll likely have to invest $10,000 in a couple years only to have the plane be worth $25,000???

Should the plane not be priced at $25,000 minus $7700 = $17200 (The $7700 is the required investment to bring it to 0 SMOH. Formula being $10,000 divided by 1800 hours is $5.50 per hour. With 400 hours left...1400 hours times $5.50 of "value" has been lost.)

That's a logical statement - but as you know, markets (any market) are not logical. Emotion plays a huge part in any purchase. For instance, a Palestinian throws a rock at an Israeli, Wall Street gets nervous and suddenly it costs $50 to fill up my car. FUD (fear-uncertainty-doubt) and desire play a big part in any purchase.

So it is with aircraft. A brand-new engine from Continental costs $20,000. In theory, a timed-out Cessna 150 is worth zero since the engine costs more than plane. But, a plane with a timed-out engine can still fly around, so it still has some value. How much? Whatever the buyer and seller are willing to agree to.

Conversely, putting a $20,000 engine into a used Cessna 150 doesn't make it a $40,000 airplane. For $40K, one could get 4-seat 172s or Cherokees. Frankly, whether the engine is zero-time or time-out, it still flies the same. The pilot won't 'feel' $20,000 more performance or utility. So typically, they're unlikely to pay much extra. How much less? Whatever the buyer and seller agree to.

Overall, Cessna 150s seem to hover in the $22,000 price range, because that's where a majority of the population with mid-time engines resides. Have a timed-out engine? It's worth less, but not much less because it still flies around and there are plenty of buyers with money and inexperience to buy such a plane. Have a brand-new engine? It's worth more, but not much because there are plenty of other airplanes with mid-time engines and most pilots don't fly more than 1,000 hours in less than a decade.

There may be plenty of "those" buyers out there...but none that are members of this club!!

This is the best response I've ever heard on the topic...well done Kirk...and thank-you.

Bravo, Kirk. I like that phrase, too. When you put it like that, we see it all the time. Man, you have a way with words.

Rob, glad you came here first instead of falling into that category.

Stopped the other day at the airport just to kill a little time. When they asked when was I going to buy a 150, I replied that I was still looking. I mentioned this forum and about putting $10-$15K into a $15,000 plane. I think this guy summed it up pretty well. He asked me what a New P/U truck would cost,I replied,$25K-$35K. Then he asked how much would that P/U be worth in 10 years? May be $5K-8K. He said if you put money into a plane you probably will never make money but if you have $30K stuck into a C150 chances are that 10 years from now you should still be able to get $20K for it! He also said that if people kept that close of an eye on any hobby that they did , no one would ever buy a boat or spend $2500 on a hunting trip or buy a snowmobile because of the loss of money. As he put it, it is your hobby, your money don't be foolish with it and make a smart decision, but you do not owe anyone an explaination on how you enjoy yourself. I guess I am running out of excuses not to buy one! Come On Lottery!!!

Anyone can heckle. Fewer can offer experience based constructive criticism. Far fewer, yet can fully appreciate the full meaning of that statement. We don't have to justify our purchases to anyone (except perhaps our spouses). High time, low time, good paint, bad paint, new engine, old engine...if I'm happy with it...GET OFF MY TAIL!

And, Tim, the right one is out there for ya, buddy!

Amen brother.

My brother in-law told me over the holidays "How can you justify buying an airplane?".

I asked him how he can justify the motorcycle that sits in his garage all darn winter (it's 10 degrees F here tonight) when I'll be flying my airplane -- end of conversation.

Airplanes rule...especially 150's!!!

While this comparison between a truck and the 150 might make sense, there are other factors that make the comparison invalid. Where do you keep your truck? At home, in your driveway or garage I assume. Does this cost you additional money over and above the cost of your house, condo, apartment, or whatever else you might live in? NO (unless you live in NYC and have to pay for a parking spot in a garage). Does the Friendly Automotive Authorities require you to keep your truck in "roadworthy" condition to drive it around? Well, yes and no. Some states have safety inspections, where bad brakes or leaky exhaust systems or defective windshield wipers will cause you to flunk, but these are all truely common sense items that no safety conscious person would drive around with anyhow, and the inspection is probably more along the lines of a $20 bill and not a $200 to $2,000 bill.

So, from the standpoint of ownership, an airplane costs to own, just to have it sitting, while the truck can be kept operating and in good repair and maintain is value, for minimal expense.

While many will say this is simply the cost of ownership, and I agree, you have to factor it in somewhere. It either devalues the perceived appreciation of your investment, or it increases the cost of your hobby, but in either case, its still an expense you have to come to terms with, which is it? High priced hobby, or not as much appreciation on your toy as you thought?

Charles

FWIW:
The price of a new plane has gone up since the last time I looked on www.cessna.com. [cessna.com.] Now a basic 160HP C-172 (Garmin G1000 is now standard equipment) is: $219,500. Back in the late '90s, a new C-172 was bout $150K (no Garmin).

There are a lot of two seater, 100HP "Light Sport" planes out on the market today that are roughly equivalent to a C-150/152. Most are running about $80K to $125K.

The cost of a new plane keeps the value of our older planes high.