Club Homepage Forums Classified Ads Buy & Sell - Airplanes Only Missing maintenance records -- N22507

I was quite enthusiastic when I first put my plane up for sale. But, something has come up that is concerning. There are as many as 25 years of missing log books, from the day the plane was first sold until about 1993, where the maintenance records pick up again. Since I have owned the plane, of course the logs are extensive.
No reputable lender will lend on this plane. I don't blame them.
So, this issue has already killed one deal and threatens to kill another deal.
It's a nice plane, but the history is not clean.
I'm not going to sweat it. I'll give the plane away to Kars for Kids if I have to.
I have definitely decided to get out of plane ownership, for various reasons.
I know this is a good, safe plane.
I will entertain ANY offer.
Just the parts alone add up. The engine, the prop, the radios. I absolutely have zero interest in parting out this plane, but, to the right person, I could offer a great deal...

What a shame, Mark. Some folks just do not nderstand how important it is to keep up with the logs!

The logs have been missing all the time you owned it? Do you have the FAA records of ownership and maintenance that you can get on CD, that will show some history. ADs are a non issue since each annual should have taken care of any that are due or recorded any that will be due. Damage that can't be spotted on a prebuy is irrelevant in my view. I wouldn't panic over this, a good plane will sell for a good price. The logs you have on the plane should show all the extensive work that was done while under your management. Missing logs are a lever the buyer might try to use to lower price but until it has been on the market for a long while I would not let that influence me on price, if they need a loan for a 150 they shouldn't be in aviation yet. Alan's .02

Yes, I have the FAA records of ownership. That's why I initially (incorrectly) stated that I had records going back to the beginning.
As you say, the plane has been gone over with a fine toothed comb ever since I owned it. It's a good plane.
I'm not panicking, but I do want to give up ownership and move on (for various reasons), so I am pricing to sell.

New asking price: $25K

I'm not very experienced in the certificated world...but I can't see where anything prior to 1993 is going to matter much today, documented or not. Especially after you installed a brand new engine.

Stay the course...it will sell.

Just out of curiosity, what reference did you use to come to the new price? Was it someone's recommendation?

There are many reasons, certificated or not, for wanting complete logs.

One is documentation of airframe time. Does the plane have 2,000 hours, or 20,000 hours? Given a choice between two identical planes, same price, but one with 2,000 hours and one with 20,000 hours, which would you pick? Of course the one with 2,000 hours. Which begs the next question - how much less are you willing to pay before you'll pick the one with 20,000 hours?

Another question logbooks can answer is if the aircraft has ever been a trainer. If it's privately-owned on leaseback to a flight school there'd be no paperwork trail of its use as a trainer. But a series of "100-hour" inspections in the logs would be a big giveaway.

This came up with Piper Cherokees and the main spar AD. The inspection is pretty onerous so a formula was created to determine if an aircraft qualifies. Landing stresses on the main spar are higher on a low-wing aircraft, but landings are not recorded in U.S. logbooks. So the number of 100-hour inspections was used as a proxy. The theory is that if a plane is undergoing 100-hour inspections it's being used as a trainer and therefore has a large(r) number of landing cycles per hour than a privately-flown plane. So the formula took into account total airframe time coupled with how many of those hours were subject to training (100-hour inspections). If either (or both) numbers were too high then you had to pay for an expensive inspection (and hope you passed). If logbooks were missing then the only safe avenue is to assume the worst and do the inspection.

Now, Cessnas are not subject to such an AD. But what if...? A future owner would want/need complete logs to be able to answer such questions.

Then there's the "FUD" factor (Fear-Uncertainty-Doubt). Why are the logs missing? Is it a simple mistake, such as lost in a fire or flood? Or because the aircraft was exported to Canada where U.S. logs are often tossed in favor of new, arguably more comprehensive Canadian logs? Or was the person trying to hide something? If so, what? It's the last question that lingers, unfortunately.

My current ride was advertised by the broker as a "one-owner airplane!" Sounds great, but I told the broker, "don't try to snow me - I know that 'one-owner' was a flight school!" I bought the airplane knowing full well it had 10,000 hours on the airframe and paid accordingly. I also had documentation to prove it. Some Cardinals (not RGs) are used in pipeline patrol. They have 20 or even 30,000 hours (or more) on their airframes. Is that a problem? Don't really know. But it certainly affects their perceived value.

Mark,

Deep breath - it's not that bad. Missing all of the logs means a 10-20% hit on price because the first annual is going to take a long time to check all ADs. Missing a portion of the logs can affect price, but that's dependent on the time covered by the omission and how long ago that time was. In 1988 I bought a 1973 Cardinal that had been stolen a few years after new-the owner had kept the logs in the airplane (bloody moron). The airplane was recovered by the logs weren't. I knew the guys who owned the airplane at the time they decided to sell it, So, about four years of the logs were missing on an airplane that was 15 years old. A pretty good-sized percentage. I'd flown it and knew the condition even though one of the owners had gone nuts and locked the airplane in a hangar - took a year to get a court order to get it released and sold. The sellers also agreed to pay for an annual at a place I selected and pay for all squawks to be worked off.

I flew it for over 1,000 hours before deciding it was time to sell because I'd moved to Michigan and was getting bad heebie jeebies flying single engine over Lake Michigan. A couple of people who called me ended the conversation when I confirmed that it did not have full logs. They were a small minority. Within a couple of months in a slow market I'd sold it for the asking price. (Bought into a twin and discovered that I really couldn't afford that and got out of it after a fairly short time and then bought into a 150 - which I loved.)

Got tired of having two deals fall through at $42.5K (round down to $40K) because of the logbook issue. At that price, young guys especially need to finance, and lenders blah blah blah.
I lopped off $15K, and now the phone/text/emails are non-stop, and not so many questions about missing logs. It's not the money so much as relieving myself of the burden of ownership for a while. Time to move on.
The buyer guy just texted to confirm we are still on for tomorrow.